I just think you say stupid things when you touch a keyboard.

Quote: Originally Posted By ashleyscott on 10/31/2008Do people want the sim to be realistic or not?

If yes, then the 120% cap is a bad idea. It is unrealistic, as already noted, to believe that a guy who played only 410 minutes during the season, doesn't have the conditioning to play 35 minutes per in the playoffs.

If the answer is no, you don't want it to be realistic, then use the cap.

Either way, we all would be playing by the same rules and nobody would have an advantage over another -- the same as it is now.

If you're not going to cap minutes, then there's no point in having a salary cap. Minutes are a huge factor in salary, and allowing unlimited minutes would totally defeat the purpose. If you want to see a team full of sub 1000 minute players that cost a couple million a piece playing 48 minutes in 7 straight games each series, don't use a minutes cap. Horrible idea; why would anyone ever have an Open League team without the few game Wilt?

Quote: Originally Posted By shawno_boy2 on 10/31/2008I just think you say stupid things when you touch a keyboard.

which, seeing as this observation comes from you, suggests the opposite is probably true by objective measure

You're asking for something totally unreasonable: there'd in essence need to be two entirely different SIM engines (regular season and playoffs) as well as two totally different salary scales. Capping minutes may be somewhat less "real", but at least it's a practicle, easily done option.

I'm just trying to stop the ongoing problem of a player who averaged 36 MPG during the season playing 48 minutes every game in a seven game series.That is unrealistic.No one cares about Mr. $239K. The sim will wipe him out with fatigue and injuries.There needs to be a cap on how much a player can go over his minutes without severe penalty.

Quote: Originally Posted By ncih on 11/01/2008I'm just trying to stop the ongoing problem of a player who averaged 36 MPG during the season playing 48 minutes every game in a seven game series.That is unrealistic.No one cares about Mr. $239K. The sim will wipe him out with fatigue and injuries.There needs to be a cap on how much a player can go over his minutes without severe penalty.

Seems like everybody except ashley agrees. Hoefully admin. does too.

I think many of you misunderstood what ashley meant. I'm going to wait for him to clarify before making false ***umptions, however.

Quote: Originally posted by ncih on 11/01/2008I'm just trying to stop the ongoing problem of a player who averaged 36 MPG during the season playing 48 minutes every game in a seven game series.That is unrealistic.No one cares about Mr. $239K.  The sim will wipe him out with fatigue and injuries.There needs to be a cap on how much a player can go over his minutes without severe penalty.

That doesn't happen. You cannot play 48 all 7 games. You might get 4 in but you'd have to throw a game.

Well, Moses Malone at 98% for 48min in game 5 is still better than moses for 40 min and amaechi for 8.

Even Moses Malone at 94% is better. That's what Moses was by the end of 98avg and I's series.

Short season players do create an incongruity in that they normally played significant minutes per game in real life, but play a lot fewer when their minutes are stretched over 82 games. Yes, it may be "unrealistic" for them to be unable to play the number of minutes in a game that they averaged in real life, but there are really only three options here. Either the minutes are limited or the games are limited or the salary structure needs changed to reflect the lack of limits. This last is untenable as some current 239K scrubs could be as effective as starters (as others have mentioned).Enforcing a game limit has numerous problems, most tellingly which games a player will miss. And the playoff rounds create additional issues. All in all, enforcing minute limitations is a lot easier to implement.So, with that in mind, per game stats really are irrelevant to the sim. What matters is per minute stats (or even more importantly, percentages not based upon minutes). So the key is to think of the short season player not as someone who averaged 35 mpg over 18 games, but as someone who averaged 7.68 mpg over 82 games. This is in line with how the salary structure is organized, and anyone expecting more is looking for a loophole to exploit. It may be "unrealistic", but it is a necessary construct to make the sim function.The current fatigue system deals with cumulative fatigue over the course of a season. This handles well any player with low overall minutes since even if they can play more than their normal minutes for a game, they are quickly hit with the fatigue penalty. I do not think that this system needs changed.However, I do think it needs backed up by a game fatigue system that prevents the abuse of overplaying good players consistently. Players with decent minutes are eventually penalized by the cumulative system, but it takes awhile to have serious effect, and players can get around this by saving minutes up by tanking a game or two along the way. The problem is exacerbated in the playoffs since the cumulative system is reset at the beginning and helped along by byes and quick series. Hitting these players with additional fatigue once their minutes exceed 120% of their minutes/82 games should limit this abuse of the system and benefit players who develop a realistic bench. This backup fatigue system shouldn't carry over from game to game - the cumulative system would still be in place to do that. One situation that could arise is a backup being pressed into long minutes due to foul trouble. There should probably be a minimum minutes floor before the additional fatigue kicks in. Since the cumulative fatigue system handles abuses by low minute players pretty well, there isn't a need to further penalize them, especially when their overuse will probably be unplanned, as long as they don't exceed 25 - 30 mpg.

Quote: Originally Posted By all3 on 10/31/2008You're asking for something totally unreasonable: there'd in essence need to be two entirely different SIM engines (regular season and playoffs) as well as two totally different salary scales. Capping minutes may be somewhat less "real", but at least it's a practicle, easily done option.

Whether it is "easy" or "hard", it doesn't matter. The issue is that some folks want the simulation to be as 'real' as possible. Therefore, the product must come close to this realism. The difficulty level is irrelevant.Further, WIS already have multiple versions of the sim. When they switch to a new update, some leagues are running under the older version. The exhib is another version of the sim.Since the playoffs is a different 'season' where all users start 0-0, they can use a different version of the sim. The only carry-over for the teams from the regular season would be injuries and fatigue. This is actually no different from how it is currently done. They changed the fatigue logic in the playoffs already. They refer to the changes as "wiggle" room.The "wiggle" needs an update. And I don't recommend a flat cap, either. Stockton is an example.In the real world, when the teams are behind in the series, the super stars play more minutes. That's the way it is. Teams don't want to go down 2-0 in the series so expect starters to play a bunch. 3-0, expect more.When they are ahead, their minutes don't differ much from the regular season mpg. It might be a little bit more but not a whole lot more.The "wiggle" needs to take into account how the team is doing in the series. If the team is doing well, keep the fatigue system the same as in the regular season. If the team is behind, relax it. Now I don't expect the sim to suddenly change Stockton from a 17 ppg score to a 27 ppg scorer in the playoffs. But I do expect the sim to allow Stockton to average 46 minutes per game.There's never a need to have two different salary structure. People would still have to draft teams that can win enough games in the regular season to even make the playoffs.

I just had a 15ppg Stockton drop 28pts and 25as in a game in the odl - with the sim generating outliers at the rate it does you already have your wish

good post, nabo... useful info.

Ashley, you're asking to have players' minutes that you didn't pay for. That distorts the entire concept of the cap. I don't for a second believe that Stockton, or anybody for that matter, could play 46 minutes per game, every game, in the Playoffs and still be at 100%. By that point in the season, everyone is a bit warn down and beat-up. They may play those "extra" minutes over what they did during the regular season, but no way they're still at 100% after a couple.